Conversations with Professor Peter Stein #2: Time at Cambridge (1951-1998)
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Between July and November 2007 Professor Stein was interviewed three times in the Squire Law Libary, to record his reminiscences of sixty years of his association with the Faculty of Law at the University of Cambridge. The interviewer is Lesley Dingle.
An the audio version is available on this website with transcript of those recordings: - First Interview (5 July 2007): Early years (1926-1947); - Second Interview (29 August 2007): Time at Cambridge (1951-1998); - Third Interview (23 November 2007): Scholarly Work. For more information, see the Squire website at http://www.squire.law.cam.ac.uk/eminent_scholars/ |
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Created: | 2011-10-03 15:06 |
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Collection: | Cambridge Law Eminent Scholars Archive MOVED |
Publisher: | University of Cambridge |
Copyright: | Mr D.J. Bates |
Language: | eng (English) |
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Transcript:
© The Squire Law Library and the Faculty of Law
Conversations with Professor Peter Gonville Stein
Second Interview: Academic Career (1951-1998)
Date: 29 August 2007 Between July and November 2007 Professor Stein was interviewed three times at the Squire Law Library in the Faculty of Law at the University of Cambridge to record his reminiscences of sixty years of his association with the Faculty. The interviews were recorded, and the audio version is available on this website with this transcript of those recordings. The questions are sequentially numbered in the three interviews for use in a database of citations made across the Eminent Scholars Archive to personalities mentioned therein.
Interviewer. Lesley Dingle, questions in bold type
Professor Stein. Answers in normal type Comments added by LD, in italics. 91. Professor Stein, for the second interview I have grouped the topics under three main headings: One, overseas visits as a scholar to Italy, United States and South Africa. Secondly, your time at Cambridge as Regius Professor and thirdly your various extramural activities such as memberships of committees. If we could begin with your overseas studies as a visiting scholar or professor covering the period 1951 to 1998 - although they took place over a long period of time it might be more systematic to bring visits to a particular country under one heading, starting with Italy which you visited several times. Well, I was a student in Italy in a college, the college of Borromeo at Pavia founded by the only millionaire saint in the catholic calendar, St Charles Borromeo in the sixteenth century and I lived there for an academic year and learned to be fairly familiar with Italian. That meant that I could go to conferences where the language of the participants was Italian and also could converse with Italian Professors without too much difficulty. While I was there I knew I had to get a job. I had finished in Italy.
Before I got the scholarship to go to Italy, I had been for an interview at Nottingham and I got a letter from Nottingham inviting me to have an assistant lectureship in law. It was, I think, to be £500 a year and they said, “But you must only come if you can stay a year.” Just a little later I got another letter from my supervisor in Cambridge, who was David Daube. He was in some ways the biggest influence on my life because he was a Roman lawyer and he excited my interest in Roman law. I didn‟t have any particular inclination in that way when I came up to Cambridge and I had rather assumed that I would become a solicitor and practice in the family firm, but Daube was very keen to get me to specialise in Roman law. I said, “Well, I am committed to Nottingham. “ I remember I wrote to Nottingham saying I thought I should get paid a little more since I was a qualified solicitor and the London County Council at that time had a permanent advertisement for as many solicitors as they could possibly get without qualified experience at something like £600 a year. Anyway, they said, “No,” that was the scale. So I said, “Oh, well, now I wanted to be an academic.” And I said, “All right.” And then I got a letter from the administration saying, “We have just noticed your age and that you are 26 and therefore we have to pay you £550.” I think it was, by virtue of my age.
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I wasn‟t terribly enthused by that letter because I felt I was probably too old, I had missed the boat. Anyway, I spent less than a year in Nottingham because Daube persuaded Aberdeen to offer me a full lectureship. I had to finish my year at Nottingham, which I did. 92. And just before you went to Nottingham in 1951 to 1952, this was the time when you were the Italian Government Scholar? Yes. I am not sure if I was technically an Italian Government Scholar, but I went for the interview at the same time because the Pavia College studentships were filled at the same time and we were treated as equal to Italian Government Scholars. The one I had was a scholarship offered by the College in Pavia. I thought the experience of college life would be very valuable. 93. And was it? Yes, it was, particularly with the language. 94. It was another 40 years before your second visit to Italy, in 1991? Well, I had been several times just, you know, for a week or two, to give the odd lecture, but what you have got here [LD. referring to a list] are the times when I went formally as visiting Professor by invitation. Whenever I got leave to go abroad I usually went to America or occasionally to South Africa. 95. Do you have any recollection of your time at Padua in1991? Yes. There was an Italian who had been here [Cambridge] who said would I come and lecture in Italian at Padua. That was the spur for the invitation, and the same with Palermo. I went to Palermo in the winter time when it was quite cold. I thought that it would be warm. 96. You also went to Salerno in 1994? Yes, that was the same. I had met someone at a conference and he said “oh, you speak Italian, come and lecture in Italian at Salerno”. This was a new university so far as law was concerned. I mean it had been founded long, long ago but there was no continuation, but he put me up in a hotel by the sea and fetched me every day and that was very pleasant. 97. It sounds very nice. It was very nice, but in some ways the visits I made just for a week or so at a time in the vacation, half vacation, were more influential because I would meet interesting people. 98. Do you recall any of these people, Professor Stein? Well, yes I suppose I became friends with some. In particular there was Giovanni Pugliese1; he influenced me to some extent. Among the German speakers, Kaser and Wieacker2 together were the two most influential Germans among the Roman lawyers because Roman law is a fairly close knit community. As I have said, the most influential man on me was Daube, who was the Professor in Aberdeen when I went there. He had supervised me in Caius and it was he who insisted that I specialise in Roman law and so on. Of course I had been a cadet during the war, a Naval Cadet, when you were allowed to do some academic work, and I did. I was a classicist then, and did know the law, so I had a bit of a grounding in Latin, having studied classics in 1944. In a way Daube exploited that, and he in some ways was the most interesting teacher, well, in every way, the most inspiring teacher I had. He was a very charismatic figure.
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In so far as English law is concerned, the most interesting supervisor I had was Geoffrey Lane who was a “weekender”. I think any account of law studies at that time, just after the war, should emphasise the influence of “weekenders”, people who were practitioners, but who came up sometimes on Friday evening or Saturday morning and did a series of hours of supervising. My Common Law supervisor for two years was Geoffrey Lane, who later became Lord Chief Justice (Lord Chief Justice Lane). I kept in touch with him in later years and I suppose he influenced me to some extent. 99. Interesting. Professor Stein you visited Rome in 1997. Any recollections…? That was at Lateran University3, which is a Catholic University. I am not a Catholic actually but they didn‟t mind that. But there were several sort of private universities in Rome which are affiliated to the Church and this was right next door to the Lateran Basilica. I gave a course there in Italian. 100. Was that on Roman law? Well, it was the sort of topic of this book [LD, referring to “Roman Law and European History”]. It took Roman law and then went on. 101. We come then, to your visits to the United States. Apart from the obvious pleasure of visiting the United States, was there any particular reason for so many visits to America? Well, money [laughs]. Virginia, I liked because it was a lovely place, lovely setting and nice colleagues - a very good law school. 102. Are they particularly active in research on Roman law? Well, they had a wonderful library and would get any books I wanted, but I mainly worked there on the influence of Roman law later on. I had an article in the Virginia Law Review from about „66 on the influence of Roman law in early post-revolutionary America, which I wrote while I was there. 103. I must dig that out. Is there any particular circumstance related to this visit or any people that you met? Well, everybody was very kind. I mean it was a very nice atmosphere in Virginia. 104. I know that you produced a thick teaching manual for Virginia in 1979. It’s the History of the European Civil Law Selected Materials Spring Semester and its 256 pages. Yes, it is photostats, which they very kindly produced for this course. I said I didn‟t have any materials, but that I could make some, and they said do that in the first semester, and they would be ready for teaching in the second semester. 105. So, you went back there again in 1978? Yes. 106. You also went to Colorado?
The Dean of Virginia very kindly arranged that. He knew that I had a whole year‟s leave of absence from Aberdeen and I said I would like to go the West and see a bit what it was like. He arranged for me to teach at the University at Colorado for a summer school after I had done two semesters at Virginia. We drove across in an old Volkswagon minibus because I had three children, three daughters with me and they went to school there. I
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remember I went to see the school where the older two were going and the principal said, “Well, I ought to warn you I can‟t guarantee their safety.” I said, “What do you mean, and he said, “Well, this is the first year of full integration and there will be black children at the school.” So I said,” Well, I am prepared to take that risk.” On the first day, the car was parked outside and I took the two girls one in each hand to walk them across the street and a photographer came and photographed me looking the wrong way, because of course, I had just arrived from looking where people are driving on the left. Here they caught me looking that way, at the oncoming traffic! But it went quite well, but of course the children were very young and the result was that I was mostly concerned with domestic matters that year. That was in the sixties. 107. 1966? 1965/66 it was, yes. It was the only time I got any leave from Aberdeen. 108. You had about four visits to Louisiana State University from ‘74 to 1985, Baton Rouge. That was because I have a friend, George Pugh4, who is a very cultivated Louisiana scholar. He got me interested, and of course, teaching in Scotland. I was interested in the mixed system at Louisiana, and Roman Dutch law in South Africa. 109. I wondered about that. Also five visits to Chicago from 1985 to 1995? Yes, Chicago is unique in having a quarter system instead of the semester system. The quarter system is more or less like our terms. They can offer many more courses of law than the ordinary average American University in that you can have a course just for a quarter which is, I suppose, about eight weeks and I could do a short-ish Roman law course, in that time. They liked that because they liked to be able to offer something unusual and very few American Universities offer Roman law. So I used to go and teach Roman law at an elementary level for a quarter and then they would say, “Well, come back next year.” And that is how I lasted so long [1985 – 1995]. I couldn‟t go every year because I was committed. So I used to go almost every other year. 110. And you went to Tulane in 1992, 1996 and 1998? Yes. I retired from here [LD: Cambridge] in 1993. Tulane because it was in New Orleans, was a more exciting place than LSU at Baton Rouge. Also they had a wee bit more money and could afford to pay me. Baton Rouge, being a state university, was always rather hard up. 111. While you were in New Orleans you lived downtown? Yes. 112. And then traveled on the tram to the law school? The street car went up the avenue, that‟s St Charles Avenue, which was the St Charles of my college in Italy, St Charles Borromeo. At least I think it was. I once asked a nun that I met at a bus stop. I said, “This is St Charles Avenue. Is this St Charles Borromeo?” And she said, “Well, I believe it is”. But she wasn‟t quite sure, however. 113. You also visited South Africa in 1970?
Yes, that was an invitation I got from The Wits Student Visiting Lecturers Trust. I asked Ken Pollack, the Bursar of Kings, who was a South Africa. I said, Do you think it is ok
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to accept this,” and he said, “Well, who has given the invitation?” And when I told him he said, “So long as it‟s not the South African Government, you‟re all right. “ He advised me against accepting any official invitation, but I went under the auspices of this Student Trust to Wits with a man called Scholtens who was a Professor in Roman law from Amsterdam. He was a Dutchman and I enjoyed that experience very much because of the survival of Roman law. 114. Sort of a hangover from pre-Dutch— Yes. 115. I know what you mean about consulting beforehand, because politics and law have always been so closely entwined in South Africa and the seventies were perhaps at the height of the political isolation. Yes. At Wits and Cape Town, which were both English speaking Universities. I wasn‟t so aware of the political side of it. The Dean at Wits, whose name I can‟t remember for the moment, you would probably know it. 116. I was never at Wits. He edited, I think the South African Law Journal. 117. It wouldn’t have been Boberg ? No, Boberg was around, I knew him but it was oh…. 118. Cowen? No, no. Oh…. 119. Van Warmelo? That was probably it. Yes it was, yes I knew him. Ellison! He was a very nice man. 120. Very prolific. Yes. 121. When you were in South Africa, did you see Professor Beinhart5? Yes, I went down to Cape Town on the train. And he looked after me there and I gave him a couple of lectures. I had visited him and he had visited me here before or he had come round I think in Aberdeen. I remember he lived in a nice house called Tusculum which was Cicero‟s house in Rome and he was extremely helpful. 122. He was from Malmesbury, a small South African town. Yes, Wasn‟t Smuts born in Malmesbury? 123. I must find out. [LD: In fact he was born at Bovenplaats in the Malmesbury district -1870] I think so, because Smuts was the Chancellor of Cambridge when I was there and I received all the degrees that I could in person. I remember kneeling before him because he spoke Latin but with a very strong Dutch accent. And he had a fabulous record because he had got nothing but firsts when he was doing law in Cambridge at Christ‟s.
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124. I remember reading that he was terribly homesick during that time. Quite likely. 125. And rather pressed financially. Yes. He was a very interesting man because of course people like Churchill were fascinated by him. And he was a prominent figure in both world wars as well as the Boer war. 126. When you say Churchill was fascinated by him, can you elaborate? Well, he often quoted him and he was a member of the War Cabinet, you know - the Imperial Cabinet. Churchill took his advice a lot on strategy and that sort of thing. 127. That brings us to the second part of our talk today, which is your time as a Regius Professor at Cambridge from 1968 to 1993. When you returned, Professor Stein, in 1968 the faculty had greatly expanded its staff from the time you were at Gonville and Caius and I have a list of Professors who were in place during your tenure. Can you remember any of them? Well, I remember all of them but I don‟t have any particular anecdotes about them. Of course Tony Jolowicz was a contemporary of mine as a student and his father was a famous Roman lawyer. 128. Did you know his father [LD: Herbert Jolowicz]? Yes, he was very kind to me. When I got back from Italy his father was a Professor at Oxford6 and I wrote to him and he invited me to lunch. Then he said, “You had better come back home and see if Tony is there.” So I went back and I couldn‟t see him. Then he said, “There he is!” And the only thing I could see was a pair of feet sticking out from under a car and he emerged. It was Tony. He was fascinated by, and knew all about, how the internal combustion engine works. Because, as I say, Roman lawyers are very thin on the ground, we all stick together and he was the Professor in Oxford. So naturally, I had to pay my respects to him and he knew I was going to Aberdeen then [LD: this dates the incident as 1952 or ‘53). 129. Did you keep in touch with him? Yes, but he died of a heart attack [LD: 1955]. It must have been when he was still in post in his early sixties. That is when Daube was appointed from Aberdeen to succeed him in Oxford and caused a bit of an upheaval in Aberdeen. They looked around for a Professor for a year and I gave the lectures. In the end they appointed me. 130. And you were just 30 years old? Yes, I was only 29 I think, so it was quite an upheaval. Up until then I had been doing almost exclusively Roman Law, but the Chair was the Chair of Jurisprudence and I had to teach both Roman law and Legal Theory so I spent a lot of time then learning about Scots Legal Theory. 131. Which must have extended your horizons greatly? Yes, because I am half a Scot, my mother was a complete Scot. She was a student at Girton. She had been at school in Scotland and I think that was the first time she left Scotland when she came as a student here to Cambridge.
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132. Do you have any recollections of Professor Glanville Williams? Yes, I always admired him. In some ways I suppose Hampson was the most dominating of these people, so far as running the Faculty and that sort of thing. 133. He started the English Legal Methods summer school. Yes. 134. Which, as I discovered last week, was as a result of his experience in the war when he was a prisoner and they were lecturing to each other during that time. The most influential, from the point of view of giving lectures, was a Professor that I don‟t think you‟ve got here, called Bailey. I think his initials were S. J. Bailey7. I thought his lectures on real property were the most interesting that I had ever heard, and I was fascinated [LD: Professor Stein must have been referring to his time at Gonville & Caius, 1947-‘49). 135. I have a photograph of him. I would like to show you after we have spoken. I would like to see it. Of the lecturers, the man who attracted a lot of attention was Barnes8 who lectured on criminal law. He had certain set lectures. There was a famous lecture on this English criminal case of whether you could commit buggery with a duck. 136. That was one of his? Yes. People used to flock into the lecture room for that one lecture. He talked with a put- on Irish accent “Conviction quashed” and he used to turn over the page. Then people used to leave. I always thought Bailey was very underestimated as a teacher. He wasn‟t called by his real name. I think he was known as Dennis Bailey but I am not quite sure. His initials, I think, were S.J. 137. Thank you so much for this. I have asked about Professor Bailey in other interviews and nothing has been forthcoming. Perhaps Professor D. G. Williams? I have known him personally for a long time. 138. Professor Jones? Professor Gareth Jones? Again, both Jones and Williams were slightly younger contemporaries of mine - they are both a year or two younger. 139. Professor Baker would have been in place? Oh, yes. 140. To some extent his interest must have coincided, or not? Well, yes, I have always sort of admired him. 141. And then the Whewell professor, Professor Crawford? He came almost when I was about to retire because didn‟t he succeed Jennings? 142. Bowett. Bowett, that‟s right. Of course Bowett I saw quite a lot of because we were both at Queens‟. I was his Vice-President - he was President at Queens‟ and he made me Vice-President so I deputised for him, which was quite nice.
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143. Any recollections Professor Stein of some of the Goodhart Professors? These would have been some of the names. This is just a chronological list. Yes. Traynor was Chief Justice of California9 and unfortunately he was a Goodhart Professor in the same year that Archibald Cox10 was the Pitt Professor of American Institutions [LD: in the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences]. At that time the law school had a claim every five years or something on the Pitt Professor, and this was just after some scandal, was it Nixon or something? 144. That was around the time ’74, ’75. They both gave lectures in the law school, visiting lectures, and I remember I was Dean then or Chairman. I said to Cox, “What are you going to lecture on?”, and he said “Watergate”. I said you can‟t call it that.” He said, “You can call it what you like but I‟ll lecture on Watergate.” I advertised it as Select Problems in American Constitutional Law and he said “all right” but all the students called it “Watergate”. People used to ring me up as Chairman and say can we invite Cox to come and lecture and I remember saying to the Chairman at Oxford, who I think was Morris, (who is on this list somewhere) [LD: Goodhart Professor 1979-‘80], “You can only have Cox if you also have Traynor”. This was because I didn‟t want Traynor to be overshadowed. He was a very quiet, modest man. Morris said, “Okay, we‟ll do that.” So they were both invited, not I think at the same time. 145. That is very interesting. There we are, Morris 1979 to ‘80 he was the… He was the conflicts lawyer. 146. And von Mehren was here in 1983 to 1984? Yes and Raoul van Caenegem [LD: 1984-‘85]. He gave my LLB lectures. You mentioned somewhere in these papers, Uhlman. Now, he wasn‟t a member of the Law Faculty but he was, before I came back, in the History Faculty. He was a Professor of Mediaeval History. 147. Here at Cambridge? Here in Cambridge, yes. First of all I think Mediaeval Ecclesiastical History, and then Mediaeval History. He influenced me quite a lot because I said I would like to lecture for the LLB on the later history of the civil law (because I have always felt that that was neglected). He said, “Well, they didn‟t have any later history.” He was a very dogmatic person. I said, “Well, I think I can find some, do you mind.” Because he offered a course for the LLB students, as they then were, LLM now, and he said, “No, no, you can,” So we did some sort of deal and I got on quite well with him and he influenced me. In fact, one or two things I wrote, I wrote because he had suggested them. When I was at Aberdeen I went to two conferences in Italy where he was also present, both at Bologne. One was marking the Centenary of Gratian‟s Decretum and the other was the centenary of the founding of the University of Bologna (which they had had to fudge because nobody could remember exactly when it was founded!) He was at both and we saw quite a lot of each other during both weeks. He always taught Mediaeval Roman Law for the LLM, and we saw quite a bit of him. David Ibbetson wrote him up in that Jurists Uprooted, very fluently.
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148. I must have a look at that article. Professor Reinhard Zimmerman, a bit later was here. He is no doubt somebody with whom you had quite a bit to do? He was at Cape Town at the time I was there. Yes, I corresponded with him while he was at Cape Town, and I have seen quite a bit of him since he left there. He is very good at getting money from foundations for conferences and visits and things. 149. He had a room just down the passage (in the Faculty) when he was a Goodhart Professor. Professor Stein, there were a further 58 or so non-professorial colleagues during your tenure at Cambridge. And I have listed some of them here, not all. I wonder if you have any recollections of Mr Prichard, Mr Michael Prichard? Well, again he was more as a contemporary, as a student and so was Elihu Lauterpacht, but I didn‟t have a great deal to do with him. 150. Mr Allot is someone else who was in place. No 151. Dr Forsythe, perhaps? No. I think he was a student but I don‟t think I ever taught him. 152. All of your time was spent in the Old Schools and it must have become very crowded. Two years after you retired, the Faculty and the library decamped to this site but there must have been several years of planning and building before you retired. Did you play any part in this? I was on one or two committees, I think. I remember going on a visit to the Oxford Law School to see what facilities were available. 153. The old building also housed the Squire Law Library. Do you have any memories of any of the library staff, for example Mr McVeigh? All I remember really in the Old Schools was that we had all become very reliant on Peter Zawada to find us things. 154. You were a member of many committees and bodies, and this brings us to the third part of the talk. Can we run through some of these, starting with your academic committees? You were a council member of the Max Planck Institute for European Legal History. There was a man who influenced me a lot, Professor Coing from Frankfurt. He had founded the Max Planck Institute for European Legal History and I was one of the people that he brought on to the scientific council. I stayed on until it was disbanded. He was a very dynamic man. They were a French Huguenot family; Coing is really French for corn. He said that his evangelical congregation had services in French once a month, even in Frankfurt, until war came. Then they had to stop, but it was he, who really showed me that there was an awful lot that could be done if you didn‟t stop studying Roman law at Justinian, but went on into the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period. I was able to see early Scot‟s law in that light and I was able to get from them a lot of historical works on Scot‟s law for the library in Frankfurt, which is an excellent law library from the historical point of view.
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155. You were also a council member of the International Association of Legal History? Yes 156. Perhaps of more significance, your membership of The International Academy of Comparative Law? I have never been to any meetings through them. 157. I noticed they have meetings every four years. Yes. 158. But the British Academy, you have been a member of since 198811. No. I became a member of the British Academy in 1974. Also on the University Grants Committee. I was five years on that from January „71 till December ‟75. You don‟t represent any interest or any institution, but they usually have one or two from Oxford and Cambridge because they are special types of University. I was the only academic lawyer and this was the period when there was a report, I can‟t remember now, on the future of legal education. Was it the Ormerod? The UGC had to implement the recommendations of the Ormerod Committee and that‟s where my experience in America told because I was convinced at Virginia and Colorado that our law schools at that time were far too small. The only way you could generate the income to pay the number of teachers in the various legal subjects was by growing and having more students. However way the law schools were financed, the amount they got depended on the number of law students they generated, and so I had a bit of influence. 159. When you consider the numbers from the seventies, when I first started as a student, to today. You were also on the UK URIS Educational Commission for several years. They invited me to join the Fulbright Commission; yes, it was technically the US UK Educational Committee. It was quite interesting. It was mainly choosing people for scholarships and a little bit of interviewing. 160. Professor Stein, one thing that impressed me when gathering information about you is that, given your very heavy academic duties and scholastic output, you have had membership of so many other bodies, which, if you don’t mind my saying seems to me to point to your being very public spirited. Well, I always felt I ought to do a little bit in the community. As for my academic work I don‟t think my academic work was all that onerous, unlike some branches of law. Roman law doesn‟t change all that rapidly and therefore my lectures didn‟t change an awful lot and didn‟t require continuous preparation and re-invention. 161. Coming to your non-academic membership bodies. When I was in Aberdeen, one of my university colleagues got me on to that board for mental hospitals12. I have always felt that mental hospitals were rather the Cinderella of the hospital service, especially at that time they were all full-up with very old people who had been dumped there because there was no where else to put them. That working party on hospital endowments, I got put on because I was Chairman of the mental hospitals and they needed someone to represent the interest of mental hospitals.
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162. You were also the Chair of the Ely Diocesan Trust and President of the Public Teachers of Law Society? Yes. 163. And your time as the Vice President of the Seldon Society. They published one of your books about teaching Roman Law in England around 1200. That was a manuscript discovered in the British Museum, and the preface to that book explains the history of it. It took a long time to identify it really. 164. We can come back to that when we speak about your work. You were a Justice of the Peace in Cambridge? Yes. 165. What did that entail, Professor Stein? I was a Magistrate and we sat in The Guild Hall. I remember it was about one half day a week, regularly. I think I succeeded Arthur Armitage who had been the President of Queens‟. It had always been a tradition that the University, particularly the Law Faculty, supplied one or two magistrates to the local bench. Armitage was one and Trevor Thomas, a lecturer in the Law Faculty who became Vice-Chancellor at Liverpool University - he was the other. Somehow I succeeded Armitage, and John Hall, a good friend of mine, succeeded Thomas. 166. So, people would come before you and you would give sentence? Yes, Magistrates always sit as three and decide by majority, but I suppose sentencing was the most problematic aspect of the work. 167. In what sense, Professor Stein? Well, there was much scope for disagreement. 168. Presumably you did not come across terribly serious offences? Oh, well, no I suppose stealing a book from Heffers can be quite a serious matter. 169. Yes. But on the whole, we didn‟t have much problem with guilt or innocence. It was usually clear enough but, as I say, I had problems deciding what the appropriate sentence was. On the whole I had a rather lenient side. Some of my colleagues on the bench wanted to be more severe. As I say, it was just one way of keeping in touch with the life of the community because I didn‟t do any more hospital work after I left Aberdeen. The Magistrates work sort of took its place.
1. Giovanni Pugliese Carratelli (1911- ), Professor at Florence, Naples, and Emeritus Professor at Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa. http://www.sns.it/it/lettere/menunews/emerito/carratelli/ 2. Franz Wieaker (1908-94). Professor of Roman Law at Leipzig, Freiburg and Göttingen.
3. Website: http://cms.pul.it/
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4. Known as the “Father of the Louisiana Code of Evidence”. See http://host.law.lsu.edu/pughinstitute/pugh.htm 5. He was the W. P. Schreiner Professor of Roman Law at the University of Cape Town 1952-‟74, and Professor at the University of Birmingham from 1974. 6. Regius Professor of Civil Law 1948-54 7. Rouse Ball Professor of English Law 1932-67. 8. H. Barnes, Fellow of Jesus College, Lecturer in Law 1932-1959. 9. Roger J Traynor, Supreme Court of California: Associate Justice 1940-64, Chief Justice 1964-70. 10. Archibald Cox Jr (1912-2004). US Solicitor General 1961-64 (Under President Kennedy), First Special investigator for the Watergate scandal 1973 (Sacked by President Nixon). 11. In fact, Professor Stein became Chairman in 1988. 12. Board of Management for the Royal Cornhill and Associated (Mental) Hospitals.
Conversations with Professor Peter Gonville Stein
Second Interview: Academic Career (1951-1998)
Date: 29 August 2007 Between July and November 2007 Professor Stein was interviewed three times at the Squire Law Library in the Faculty of Law at the University of Cambridge to record his reminiscences of sixty years of his association with the Faculty. The interviews were recorded, and the audio version is available on this website with this transcript of those recordings. The questions are sequentially numbered in the three interviews for use in a database of citations made across the Eminent Scholars Archive to personalities mentioned therein.
Interviewer. Lesley Dingle, questions in bold type
Professor Stein. Answers in normal type Comments added by LD, in italics. 91. Professor Stein, for the second interview I have grouped the topics under three main headings: One, overseas visits as a scholar to Italy, United States and South Africa. Secondly, your time at Cambridge as Regius Professor and thirdly your various extramural activities such as memberships of committees. If we could begin with your overseas studies as a visiting scholar or professor covering the period 1951 to 1998 - although they took place over a long period of time it might be more systematic to bring visits to a particular country under one heading, starting with Italy which you visited several times. Well, I was a student in Italy in a college, the college of Borromeo at Pavia founded by the only millionaire saint in the catholic calendar, St Charles Borromeo in the sixteenth century and I lived there for an academic year and learned to be fairly familiar with Italian. That meant that I could go to conferences where the language of the participants was Italian and also could converse with Italian Professors without too much difficulty. While I was there I knew I had to get a job. I had finished in Italy.
Before I got the scholarship to go to Italy, I had been for an interview at Nottingham and I got a letter from Nottingham inviting me to have an assistant lectureship in law. It was, I think, to be £500 a year and they said, “But you must only come if you can stay a year.” Just a little later I got another letter from my supervisor in Cambridge, who was David Daube. He was in some ways the biggest influence on my life because he was a Roman lawyer and he excited my interest in Roman law. I didn‟t have any particular inclination in that way when I came up to Cambridge and I had rather assumed that I would become a solicitor and practice in the family firm, but Daube was very keen to get me to specialise in Roman law. I said, “Well, I am committed to Nottingham. “ I remember I wrote to Nottingham saying I thought I should get paid a little more since I was a qualified solicitor and the London County Council at that time had a permanent advertisement for as many solicitors as they could possibly get without qualified experience at something like £600 a year. Anyway, they said, “No,” that was the scale. So I said, “Oh, well, now I wanted to be an academic.” And I said, “All right.” And then I got a letter from the administration saying, “We have just noticed your age and that you are 26 and therefore we have to pay you £550.” I think it was, by virtue of my age.
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I wasn‟t terribly enthused by that letter because I felt I was probably too old, I had missed the boat. Anyway, I spent less than a year in Nottingham because Daube persuaded Aberdeen to offer me a full lectureship. I had to finish my year at Nottingham, which I did. 92. And just before you went to Nottingham in 1951 to 1952, this was the time when you were the Italian Government Scholar? Yes. I am not sure if I was technically an Italian Government Scholar, but I went for the interview at the same time because the Pavia College studentships were filled at the same time and we were treated as equal to Italian Government Scholars. The one I had was a scholarship offered by the College in Pavia. I thought the experience of college life would be very valuable. 93. And was it? Yes, it was, particularly with the language. 94. It was another 40 years before your second visit to Italy, in 1991? Well, I had been several times just, you know, for a week or two, to give the odd lecture, but what you have got here [LD. referring to a list] are the times when I went formally as visiting Professor by invitation. Whenever I got leave to go abroad I usually went to America or occasionally to South Africa. 95. Do you have any recollection of your time at Padua in1991? Yes. There was an Italian who had been here [Cambridge] who said would I come and lecture in Italian at Padua. That was the spur for the invitation, and the same with Palermo. I went to Palermo in the winter time when it was quite cold. I thought that it would be warm. 96. You also went to Salerno in 1994? Yes, that was the same. I had met someone at a conference and he said “oh, you speak Italian, come and lecture in Italian at Salerno”. This was a new university so far as law was concerned. I mean it had been founded long, long ago but there was no continuation, but he put me up in a hotel by the sea and fetched me every day and that was very pleasant. 97. It sounds very nice. It was very nice, but in some ways the visits I made just for a week or so at a time in the vacation, half vacation, were more influential because I would meet interesting people. 98. Do you recall any of these people, Professor Stein? Well, yes I suppose I became friends with some. In particular there was Giovanni Pugliese1; he influenced me to some extent. Among the German speakers, Kaser and Wieacker2 together were the two most influential Germans among the Roman lawyers because Roman law is a fairly close knit community. As I have said, the most influential man on me was Daube, who was the Professor in Aberdeen when I went there. He had supervised me in Caius and it was he who insisted that I specialise in Roman law and so on. Of course I had been a cadet during the war, a Naval Cadet, when you were allowed to do some academic work, and I did. I was a classicist then, and did know the law, so I had a bit of a grounding in Latin, having studied classics in 1944. In a way Daube exploited that, and he in some ways was the most interesting teacher, well, in every way, the most inspiring teacher I had. He was a very charismatic figure.
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In so far as English law is concerned, the most interesting supervisor I had was Geoffrey Lane who was a “weekender”. I think any account of law studies at that time, just after the war, should emphasise the influence of “weekenders”, people who were practitioners, but who came up sometimes on Friday evening or Saturday morning and did a series of hours of supervising. My Common Law supervisor for two years was Geoffrey Lane, who later became Lord Chief Justice (Lord Chief Justice Lane). I kept in touch with him in later years and I suppose he influenced me to some extent. 99. Interesting. Professor Stein you visited Rome in 1997. Any recollections…? That was at Lateran University3, which is a Catholic University. I am not a Catholic actually but they didn‟t mind that. But there were several sort of private universities in Rome which are affiliated to the Church and this was right next door to the Lateran Basilica. I gave a course there in Italian. 100. Was that on Roman law? Well, it was the sort of topic of this book [LD, referring to “Roman Law and European History”]. It took Roman law and then went on. 101. We come then, to your visits to the United States. Apart from the obvious pleasure of visiting the United States, was there any particular reason for so many visits to America? Well, money [laughs]. Virginia, I liked because it was a lovely place, lovely setting and nice colleagues - a very good law school. 102. Are they particularly active in research on Roman law? Well, they had a wonderful library and would get any books I wanted, but I mainly worked there on the influence of Roman law later on. I had an article in the Virginia Law Review from about „66 on the influence of Roman law in early post-revolutionary America, which I wrote while I was there. 103. I must dig that out. Is there any particular circumstance related to this visit or any people that you met? Well, everybody was very kind. I mean it was a very nice atmosphere in Virginia. 104. I know that you produced a thick teaching manual for Virginia in 1979. It’s the History of the European Civil Law Selected Materials Spring Semester and its 256 pages. Yes, it is photostats, which they very kindly produced for this course. I said I didn‟t have any materials, but that I could make some, and they said do that in the first semester, and they would be ready for teaching in the second semester. 105. So, you went back there again in 1978? Yes. 106. You also went to Colorado?
The Dean of Virginia very kindly arranged that. He knew that I had a whole year‟s leave of absence from Aberdeen and I said I would like to go the West and see a bit what it was like. He arranged for me to teach at the University at Colorado for a summer school after I had done two semesters at Virginia. We drove across in an old Volkswagon minibus because I had three children, three daughters with me and they went to school there. I
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remember I went to see the school where the older two were going and the principal said, “Well, I ought to warn you I can‟t guarantee their safety.” I said, “What do you mean, and he said, “Well, this is the first year of full integration and there will be black children at the school.” So I said,” Well, I am prepared to take that risk.” On the first day, the car was parked outside and I took the two girls one in each hand to walk them across the street and a photographer came and photographed me looking the wrong way, because of course, I had just arrived from looking where people are driving on the left. Here they caught me looking that way, at the oncoming traffic! But it went quite well, but of course the children were very young and the result was that I was mostly concerned with domestic matters that year. That was in the sixties. 107. 1966? 1965/66 it was, yes. It was the only time I got any leave from Aberdeen. 108. You had about four visits to Louisiana State University from ‘74 to 1985, Baton Rouge. That was because I have a friend, George Pugh4, who is a very cultivated Louisiana scholar. He got me interested, and of course, teaching in Scotland. I was interested in the mixed system at Louisiana, and Roman Dutch law in South Africa. 109. I wondered about that. Also five visits to Chicago from 1985 to 1995? Yes, Chicago is unique in having a quarter system instead of the semester system. The quarter system is more or less like our terms. They can offer many more courses of law than the ordinary average American University in that you can have a course just for a quarter which is, I suppose, about eight weeks and I could do a short-ish Roman law course, in that time. They liked that because they liked to be able to offer something unusual and very few American Universities offer Roman law. So I used to go and teach Roman law at an elementary level for a quarter and then they would say, “Well, come back next year.” And that is how I lasted so long [1985 – 1995]. I couldn‟t go every year because I was committed. So I used to go almost every other year. 110. And you went to Tulane in 1992, 1996 and 1998? Yes. I retired from here [LD: Cambridge] in 1993. Tulane because it was in New Orleans, was a more exciting place than LSU at Baton Rouge. Also they had a wee bit more money and could afford to pay me. Baton Rouge, being a state university, was always rather hard up. 111. While you were in New Orleans you lived downtown? Yes. 112. And then traveled on the tram to the law school? The street car went up the avenue, that‟s St Charles Avenue, which was the St Charles of my college in Italy, St Charles Borromeo. At least I think it was. I once asked a nun that I met at a bus stop. I said, “This is St Charles Avenue. Is this St Charles Borromeo?” And she said, “Well, I believe it is”. But she wasn‟t quite sure, however. 113. You also visited South Africa in 1970?
Yes, that was an invitation I got from The Wits Student Visiting Lecturers Trust. I asked Ken Pollack, the Bursar of Kings, who was a South Africa. I said, Do you think it is ok
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to accept this,” and he said, “Well, who has given the invitation?” And when I told him he said, “So long as it‟s not the South African Government, you‟re all right. “ He advised me against accepting any official invitation, but I went under the auspices of this Student Trust to Wits with a man called Scholtens who was a Professor in Roman law from Amsterdam. He was a Dutchman and I enjoyed that experience very much because of the survival of Roman law. 114. Sort of a hangover from pre-Dutch— Yes. 115. I know what you mean about consulting beforehand, because politics and law have always been so closely entwined in South Africa and the seventies were perhaps at the height of the political isolation. Yes. At Wits and Cape Town, which were both English speaking Universities. I wasn‟t so aware of the political side of it. The Dean at Wits, whose name I can‟t remember for the moment, you would probably know it. 116. I was never at Wits. He edited, I think the South African Law Journal. 117. It wouldn’t have been Boberg ? No, Boberg was around, I knew him but it was oh…. 118. Cowen? No, no. Oh…. 119. Van Warmelo? That was probably it. Yes it was, yes I knew him. Ellison! He was a very nice man. 120. Very prolific. Yes. 121. When you were in South Africa, did you see Professor Beinhart5? Yes, I went down to Cape Town on the train. And he looked after me there and I gave him a couple of lectures. I had visited him and he had visited me here before or he had come round I think in Aberdeen. I remember he lived in a nice house called Tusculum which was Cicero‟s house in Rome and he was extremely helpful. 122. He was from Malmesbury, a small South African town. Yes, Wasn‟t Smuts born in Malmesbury? 123. I must find out. [LD: In fact he was born at Bovenplaats in the Malmesbury district -1870] I think so, because Smuts was the Chancellor of Cambridge when I was there and I received all the degrees that I could in person. I remember kneeling before him because he spoke Latin but with a very strong Dutch accent. And he had a fabulous record because he had got nothing but firsts when he was doing law in Cambridge at Christ‟s.
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124. I remember reading that he was terribly homesick during that time. Quite likely. 125. And rather pressed financially. Yes. He was a very interesting man because of course people like Churchill were fascinated by him. And he was a prominent figure in both world wars as well as the Boer war. 126. When you say Churchill was fascinated by him, can you elaborate? Well, he often quoted him and he was a member of the War Cabinet, you know - the Imperial Cabinet. Churchill took his advice a lot on strategy and that sort of thing. 127. That brings us to the second part of our talk today, which is your time as a Regius Professor at Cambridge from 1968 to 1993. When you returned, Professor Stein, in 1968 the faculty had greatly expanded its staff from the time you were at Gonville and Caius and I have a list of Professors who were in place during your tenure. Can you remember any of them? Well, I remember all of them but I don‟t have any particular anecdotes about them. Of course Tony Jolowicz was a contemporary of mine as a student and his father was a famous Roman lawyer. 128. Did you know his father [LD: Herbert Jolowicz]? Yes, he was very kind to me. When I got back from Italy his father was a Professor at Oxford6 and I wrote to him and he invited me to lunch. Then he said, “You had better come back home and see if Tony is there.” So I went back and I couldn‟t see him. Then he said, “There he is!” And the only thing I could see was a pair of feet sticking out from under a car and he emerged. It was Tony. He was fascinated by, and knew all about, how the internal combustion engine works. Because, as I say, Roman lawyers are very thin on the ground, we all stick together and he was the Professor in Oxford. So naturally, I had to pay my respects to him and he knew I was going to Aberdeen then [LD: this dates the incident as 1952 or ‘53). 129. Did you keep in touch with him? Yes, but he died of a heart attack [LD: 1955]. It must have been when he was still in post in his early sixties. That is when Daube was appointed from Aberdeen to succeed him in Oxford and caused a bit of an upheaval in Aberdeen. They looked around for a Professor for a year and I gave the lectures. In the end they appointed me. 130. And you were just 30 years old? Yes, I was only 29 I think, so it was quite an upheaval. Up until then I had been doing almost exclusively Roman Law, but the Chair was the Chair of Jurisprudence and I had to teach both Roman law and Legal Theory so I spent a lot of time then learning about Scots Legal Theory. 131. Which must have extended your horizons greatly? Yes, because I am half a Scot, my mother was a complete Scot. She was a student at Girton. She had been at school in Scotland and I think that was the first time she left Scotland when she came as a student here to Cambridge.
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132. Do you have any recollections of Professor Glanville Williams? Yes, I always admired him. In some ways I suppose Hampson was the most dominating of these people, so far as running the Faculty and that sort of thing. 133. He started the English Legal Methods summer school. Yes. 134. Which, as I discovered last week, was as a result of his experience in the war when he was a prisoner and they were lecturing to each other during that time. The most influential, from the point of view of giving lectures, was a Professor that I don‟t think you‟ve got here, called Bailey. I think his initials were S. J. Bailey7. I thought his lectures on real property were the most interesting that I had ever heard, and I was fascinated [LD: Professor Stein must have been referring to his time at Gonville & Caius, 1947-‘49). 135. I have a photograph of him. I would like to show you after we have spoken. I would like to see it. Of the lecturers, the man who attracted a lot of attention was Barnes8 who lectured on criminal law. He had certain set lectures. There was a famous lecture on this English criminal case of whether you could commit buggery with a duck. 136. That was one of his? Yes. People used to flock into the lecture room for that one lecture. He talked with a put- on Irish accent “Conviction quashed” and he used to turn over the page. Then people used to leave. I always thought Bailey was very underestimated as a teacher. He wasn‟t called by his real name. I think he was known as Dennis Bailey but I am not quite sure. His initials, I think, were S.J. 137. Thank you so much for this. I have asked about Professor Bailey in other interviews and nothing has been forthcoming. Perhaps Professor D. G. Williams? I have known him personally for a long time. 138. Professor Jones? Professor Gareth Jones? Again, both Jones and Williams were slightly younger contemporaries of mine - they are both a year or two younger. 139. Professor Baker would have been in place? Oh, yes. 140. To some extent his interest must have coincided, or not? Well, yes, I have always sort of admired him. 141. And then the Whewell professor, Professor Crawford? He came almost when I was about to retire because didn‟t he succeed Jennings? 142. Bowett. Bowett, that‟s right. Of course Bowett I saw quite a lot of because we were both at Queens‟. I was his Vice-President - he was President at Queens‟ and he made me Vice-President so I deputised for him, which was quite nice.
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143. Any recollections Professor Stein of some of the Goodhart Professors? These would have been some of the names. This is just a chronological list. Yes. Traynor was Chief Justice of California9 and unfortunately he was a Goodhart Professor in the same year that Archibald Cox10 was the Pitt Professor of American Institutions [LD: in the Faculty of Social and Political Sciences]. At that time the law school had a claim every five years or something on the Pitt Professor, and this was just after some scandal, was it Nixon or something? 144. That was around the time ’74, ’75. They both gave lectures in the law school, visiting lectures, and I remember I was Dean then or Chairman. I said to Cox, “What are you going to lecture on?”, and he said “Watergate”. I said you can‟t call it that.” He said, “You can call it what you like but I‟ll lecture on Watergate.” I advertised it as Select Problems in American Constitutional Law and he said “all right” but all the students called it “Watergate”. People used to ring me up as Chairman and say can we invite Cox to come and lecture and I remember saying to the Chairman at Oxford, who I think was Morris, (who is on this list somewhere) [LD: Goodhart Professor 1979-‘80], “You can only have Cox if you also have Traynor”. This was because I didn‟t want Traynor to be overshadowed. He was a very quiet, modest man. Morris said, “Okay, we‟ll do that.” So they were both invited, not I think at the same time. 145. That is very interesting. There we are, Morris 1979 to ‘80 he was the… He was the conflicts lawyer. 146. And von Mehren was here in 1983 to 1984? Yes and Raoul van Caenegem [LD: 1984-‘85]. He gave my LLB lectures. You mentioned somewhere in these papers, Uhlman. Now, he wasn‟t a member of the Law Faculty but he was, before I came back, in the History Faculty. He was a Professor of Mediaeval History. 147. Here at Cambridge? Here in Cambridge, yes. First of all I think Mediaeval Ecclesiastical History, and then Mediaeval History. He influenced me quite a lot because I said I would like to lecture for the LLB on the later history of the civil law (because I have always felt that that was neglected). He said, “Well, they didn‟t have any later history.” He was a very dogmatic person. I said, “Well, I think I can find some, do you mind.” Because he offered a course for the LLB students, as they then were, LLM now, and he said, “No, no, you can,” So we did some sort of deal and I got on quite well with him and he influenced me. In fact, one or two things I wrote, I wrote because he had suggested them. When I was at Aberdeen I went to two conferences in Italy where he was also present, both at Bologne. One was marking the Centenary of Gratian‟s Decretum and the other was the centenary of the founding of the University of Bologna (which they had had to fudge because nobody could remember exactly when it was founded!) He was at both and we saw quite a lot of each other during both weeks. He always taught Mediaeval Roman Law for the LLM, and we saw quite a bit of him. David Ibbetson wrote him up in that Jurists Uprooted, very fluently.
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148. I must have a look at that article. Professor Reinhard Zimmerman, a bit later was here. He is no doubt somebody with whom you had quite a bit to do? He was at Cape Town at the time I was there. Yes, I corresponded with him while he was at Cape Town, and I have seen quite a bit of him since he left there. He is very good at getting money from foundations for conferences and visits and things. 149. He had a room just down the passage (in the Faculty) when he was a Goodhart Professor. Professor Stein, there were a further 58 or so non-professorial colleagues during your tenure at Cambridge. And I have listed some of them here, not all. I wonder if you have any recollections of Mr Prichard, Mr Michael Prichard? Well, again he was more as a contemporary, as a student and so was Elihu Lauterpacht, but I didn‟t have a great deal to do with him. 150. Mr Allot is someone else who was in place. No 151. Dr Forsythe, perhaps? No. I think he was a student but I don‟t think I ever taught him. 152. All of your time was spent in the Old Schools and it must have become very crowded. Two years after you retired, the Faculty and the library decamped to this site but there must have been several years of planning and building before you retired. Did you play any part in this? I was on one or two committees, I think. I remember going on a visit to the Oxford Law School to see what facilities were available. 153. The old building also housed the Squire Law Library. Do you have any memories of any of the library staff, for example Mr McVeigh? All I remember really in the Old Schools was that we had all become very reliant on Peter Zawada to find us things. 154. You were a member of many committees and bodies, and this brings us to the third part of the talk. Can we run through some of these, starting with your academic committees? You were a council member of the Max Planck Institute for European Legal History. There was a man who influenced me a lot, Professor Coing from Frankfurt. He had founded the Max Planck Institute for European Legal History and I was one of the people that he brought on to the scientific council. I stayed on until it was disbanded. He was a very dynamic man. They were a French Huguenot family; Coing is really French for corn. He said that his evangelical congregation had services in French once a month, even in Frankfurt, until war came. Then they had to stop, but it was he, who really showed me that there was an awful lot that could be done if you didn‟t stop studying Roman law at Justinian, but went on into the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period. I was able to see early Scot‟s law in that light and I was able to get from them a lot of historical works on Scot‟s law for the library in Frankfurt, which is an excellent law library from the historical point of view.
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155. You were also a council member of the International Association of Legal History? Yes 156. Perhaps of more significance, your membership of The International Academy of Comparative Law? I have never been to any meetings through them. 157. I noticed they have meetings every four years. Yes. 158. But the British Academy, you have been a member of since 198811. No. I became a member of the British Academy in 1974. Also on the University Grants Committee. I was five years on that from January „71 till December ‟75. You don‟t represent any interest or any institution, but they usually have one or two from Oxford and Cambridge because they are special types of University. I was the only academic lawyer and this was the period when there was a report, I can‟t remember now, on the future of legal education. Was it the Ormerod? The UGC had to implement the recommendations of the Ormerod Committee and that‟s where my experience in America told because I was convinced at Virginia and Colorado that our law schools at that time were far too small. The only way you could generate the income to pay the number of teachers in the various legal subjects was by growing and having more students. However way the law schools were financed, the amount they got depended on the number of law students they generated, and so I had a bit of influence. 159. When you consider the numbers from the seventies, when I first started as a student, to today. You were also on the UK URIS Educational Commission for several years. They invited me to join the Fulbright Commission; yes, it was technically the US UK Educational Committee. It was quite interesting. It was mainly choosing people for scholarships and a little bit of interviewing. 160. Professor Stein, one thing that impressed me when gathering information about you is that, given your very heavy academic duties and scholastic output, you have had membership of so many other bodies, which, if you don’t mind my saying seems to me to point to your being very public spirited. Well, I always felt I ought to do a little bit in the community. As for my academic work I don‟t think my academic work was all that onerous, unlike some branches of law. Roman law doesn‟t change all that rapidly and therefore my lectures didn‟t change an awful lot and didn‟t require continuous preparation and re-invention. 161. Coming to your non-academic membership bodies. When I was in Aberdeen, one of my university colleagues got me on to that board for mental hospitals12. I have always felt that mental hospitals were rather the Cinderella of the hospital service, especially at that time they were all full-up with very old people who had been dumped there because there was no where else to put them. That working party on hospital endowments, I got put on because I was Chairman of the mental hospitals and they needed someone to represent the interest of mental hospitals.
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162. You were also the Chair of the Ely Diocesan Trust and President of the Public Teachers of Law Society? Yes. 163. And your time as the Vice President of the Seldon Society. They published one of your books about teaching Roman Law in England around 1200. That was a manuscript discovered in the British Museum, and the preface to that book explains the history of it. It took a long time to identify it really. 164. We can come back to that when we speak about your work. You were a Justice of the Peace in Cambridge? Yes. 165. What did that entail, Professor Stein? I was a Magistrate and we sat in The Guild Hall. I remember it was about one half day a week, regularly. I think I succeeded Arthur Armitage who had been the President of Queens‟. It had always been a tradition that the University, particularly the Law Faculty, supplied one or two magistrates to the local bench. Armitage was one and Trevor Thomas, a lecturer in the Law Faculty who became Vice-Chancellor at Liverpool University - he was the other. Somehow I succeeded Armitage, and John Hall, a good friend of mine, succeeded Thomas. 166. So, people would come before you and you would give sentence? Yes, Magistrates always sit as three and decide by majority, but I suppose sentencing was the most problematic aspect of the work. 167. In what sense, Professor Stein? Well, there was much scope for disagreement. 168. Presumably you did not come across terribly serious offences? Oh, well, no I suppose stealing a book from Heffers can be quite a serious matter. 169. Yes. But on the whole, we didn‟t have much problem with guilt or innocence. It was usually clear enough but, as I say, I had problems deciding what the appropriate sentence was. On the whole I had a rather lenient side. Some of my colleagues on the bench wanted to be more severe. As I say, it was just one way of keeping in touch with the life of the community because I didn‟t do any more hospital work after I left Aberdeen. The Magistrates work sort of took its place.
1. Giovanni Pugliese Carratelli (1911- ), Professor at Florence, Naples, and Emeritus Professor at Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa. http://www.sns.it/it/lettere/menunews/emerito/carratelli/ 2. Franz Wieaker (1908-94). Professor of Roman Law at Leipzig, Freiburg and Göttingen.
3. Website: http://cms.pul.it/
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4. Known as the “Father of the Louisiana Code of Evidence”. See http://host.law.lsu.edu/pughinstitute/pugh.htm 5. He was the W. P. Schreiner Professor of Roman Law at the University of Cape Town 1952-‟74, and Professor at the University of Birmingham from 1974. 6. Regius Professor of Civil Law 1948-54 7. Rouse Ball Professor of English Law 1932-67. 8. H. Barnes, Fellow of Jesus College, Lecturer in Law 1932-1959. 9. Roger J Traynor, Supreme Court of California: Associate Justice 1940-64, Chief Justice 1964-70. 10. Archibald Cox Jr (1912-2004). US Solicitor General 1961-64 (Under President Kennedy), First Special investigator for the Watergate scandal 1973 (Sacked by President Nixon). 11. In fact, Professor Stein became Chairman in 1988. 12. Board of Management for the Royal Cornhill and Associated (Mental) Hospitals.
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