Breaking the (supply) Chain: Can the law make our food more sustainable?

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Rob Doubleday: So I'm Rob Doubleday. I am the Executive Director of the Center for Science and Policy, and it's my pleasure to be chairing


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Rob Doubleday: this evening's discussion about


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Rob Doubleday: food security, the sustainable and healthy supply of food, and the role of international law in in helping that happen.


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Rob Doubleday: I'm going to stop sharing my screen now, and welcome you all to the discussion.


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Rob Doubleday: To begin with, I'll give a few housekeeping rules.


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Rob Doubleday: the audio, you, the audience members, and your microphones and cameras will remain off throughout. But do note that the


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Rob Doubleday: a conversation is being recorded so you can return to it and share it later.


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Rob Doubleday: We are trying to have as much conversation as we can, so please use the QA. Function throughout the event. Put your questions to the panel. They don't wait to the end but your questions, and then we'll you know your questions might inspire others. And and just to say that we're very grateful to the Cambridge


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Rob Doubleday: Global Food Security initiative, which is an interdisciplinary program across the University of Cambridge that brings all kinds of disciplines together to tackle a challenge of supplying


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Rob Doubleday: plentiful, safe, nutritious, and sustainable food for all. So that's what we're all here for.


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Rob Doubleday: And the particular topic for today's discussion is the role of international law


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Rob Doubleday: and how international law can help


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Rob Doubleday: secure safe and sustainable food and the tensions, perhaps between national concerns, national cultures, national


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Rob Doubleday: goals, and and the international regime, and whether there are tensions, or perhaps complementarities, between the goals of achieving international free trade and sustainable and safe supplies of food.


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Rob Doubleday: we're very lucky to have 3 excellent panelists, who again to each begin to open up these questions. They'll each speak for a a short while, and then you will hope to have at least half an hour of of discussions with the panel.


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Rob Doubleday: So in order, we'll hear from Tony Heron, who's a professor of international political economy at York.


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Rob Doubleday: and then we'll hear from Jelly Molino, who's a postdoctoral researcher in private law at Hughes Hall in Cambridge, and also a senior associate for the center for Climate


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Rob Doubleday: Engagement.


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Rob Doubleday: and Joyce Branza, who is a Phd. Student in geography and also an associate of the Cambridge Conservation Research Institute.


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Rob Doubleday: and Joyce's research looks at supply chains and the policy of 0 deforestation in Brazil. So with that brief introduction, and again a warm welcome to all of you for joining. I'm gonna hand over to Tony.


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Tony Heron: Thank you, Rob. Hi, everyone. Good evening and thanks to Rob for the kind introduction, and thank you to Cambridge for the invite to talk to you. I'm just gonna share my screen as I've got few slides. How do I do this?


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Tony Heron: K.


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Tony Heron: just find my presentation.


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Tony Heron: The


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Tony Heron: Me. 2 min.


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Tony Heron: 2 oops.


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Tony Heron: Here we go.


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Tony Heron: Okay.


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Tony Heron: Okay, so yes. So I've been given a few short minutes to introduce the topic and speak to this question


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Tony Heron: breaking the supply chain, can the law make our food more sustainable? So what I'm gonna say initially is is to just make a few kind of open and fairly, John. General observations about some of those tensions and potential


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Tony Heron: complementarities that Rob mentioned, and hopefully in the discussion, we can maybe probe a little bit deeper into some of the


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Tony Heron: underlying issues.


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Tony Heron: The 1st thing, I suppose to say is that


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Tony Heron: over the last


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Tony Heron: 3 or 4 decades the salience of food


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Tony Heron: as an issue and the issues around consumer welfare has grown significantly. We can think back those. If we were old enough to remember mad cow disease Bse in in the 19 nineties. More recently, we've had the horse meat, scandal, and much more recently growing concerns around deforestation.


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Tony Heron: Biodiversity, loss and climate change! All of which are come together in in, in food and agriculture and agriculture, of course, is one of the biggest drivers, climate change and deforestation. And then the food system, in a sense, is is defined by something of a paradox. So over time, it's probably true to say that.


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Tony Heron: the legal kind of


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Tony Heron: the, I suppose the the regulation and the legal framework underpinning the food system is more robust than it's ever been


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Tony Heron: and the food that we consume is generally, you know, safer than it's ever been. But our anxiety around food and our awareness of of some of the you know. Some of the some of some some some of the dark sides of the food system is, is, is has grown has has grown significantly in that in in that time. And


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Tony Heron: obviously, the the the sheer range and availability of food is in particularly within within wealthy countries has has grown significantly. But also we can think about. You know, the growth in, you know, eating disorders, the expose some of the appalling conditions which food is is produced.


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Tony Heron: And these anxieties are connected to the twin processes of the internationalization of our about food supply chain


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Tony Heron: and in terms of the industrialisation


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Tony Heron: process by which food is made. So I think that's a sort of a useful context for thinking about the food system as a whole. And so this process of this twin process of internationalization


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Tony Heron: and industrialization props 3 questions which which I suppose speak to the growing complexity of our food system. It's a system that is, you know, that is geographically dispersed. So it's it's it, you know, it's spatially complex.


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Tony Heron: It's, you know, it's structurally complex because of the ways in which international supply chains


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Tony Heron: operate and and and it's also, of course, politically complex, because those those structures cut across national jurisdictions in on A on a kind of truly global scale.


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Tony Heron: But anyway, we think about the food systems, a series of interconnected activities and outcomes, whether they're nutritional outcomes, whether they're environmental outcomes, whether they're, you know, economic outcomes.


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Tony Heron: It prompts 3 kind of questions which would speak to the you know, the role of the law rule for regulation in in, in food production. Where does our food come from? How is it produced? You know the social, economic, environmental conditions which it's produced. And is it safe?


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Tony Heron: And so a good illustration of the this complexity is, is is the soybean which I think one of our other speakers Joyce is gonna talk about in more detail. So is A is a really good illustration of of some of the you know. Some of some of the complexities, but also


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Tony Heron: ubiquity of of agriculture within our food system. So it's soybeans is among the most globally traded agricultural commodities, and one of the key drivers of deforestation, particularly within the southern cone, Latin America and Brazil in particular.


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Tony Heron: Yet our awareness of it and our role in this consumption is is to a large extent passive or unwitting so you know, we we consume a relatively small amount of soy directly, but the indirect consumption of soy. If you're eating fish or you're eating pork, you're eating chicken.


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Tony Heron: you are. You are almost certainly eating eating, so in consuming. So yet our knowledge of this and how it impacts upon the


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Tony Heron: you know, the places in which it is produced. Is is relatively is, is is, we're relatively ignorant of these processes. And this is a consequence, obviously, of the internationalization


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Tony Heron: and the the industrialization of the food system.


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Tony Heron: Next slide


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Tony Heron: alright.


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Tony Heron: okay. And so this then leads to well, how do we regulate how? What? How do we? How do we manage? How do we mitigate the the externalities that may come from from from, you know the


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Tony Heron: the scale and complexity with which food is produced. And broadly, we can think about 4 kind of mechanisms. And maybe we can talk a bit more about these in the discussion. So we can talk about kind of government at the border policies. So that's the things that national governments do


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Tony Heron: to, you know, to to to to enforce on health and safety. So sometimes the technical jargon for this is sanitary insight to sanitary standards. Sbs, and it so this is a the way in which how we we prove, you know. the the food. You know, it's not contaminated. There's no biological pathogens within it.


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Tony Heron: And we've also things that things like chlorinated chicken and hormone treated beef, the the the moratorium, the bans that that the EU and Uk currently impose on those on those on those those products. So that's a good illustration of national level policies imposed at the border.


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Tony Heron: Then we can think about international agreements. This could be bilateral, regional or multilateral trade agreements which contain specific clauses or understandings around the conditions in which food


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Tony Heron: food is food is food is produced and and and traded.


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Tony Heron: We can then think about private voluntary arrangements. These can be private standards that managed, and police by supermarkets. In other words, if you want to produce and Celt your your, your agricultural produce to to to Tesco, so to waitress. You have to meet certain certain certain. You know certain environmental standards with regard to pesticide use, and so on, or we could think about things like eco labels, fair trade, and so on.


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Tony Heron: And so these are private voluntary arrangements in which consumers take signals from the market and the information that the market provides and these have become obviously very popular over over recent years. And perhaps more recently, what we're seeing now is is this this idea of due diligence? So what we see now within a number of countries, including Uk.


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Tony Heron: is the use of the state to hold international companies responsible for the conditions, the environmental conditions, the labor conditions


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Tony Heron: within the supply chain to ensure that they're they're they're not just them directly, but the the upstream suppliers are conforming to national regulations in the point of production. And so this is a kind of interesting, as I say, hybrid, because it's it's an it. Often


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Tony Heron: the measures or the standards and norms are are derived from voluntary arrangements that come from Ngos come from the private sector. And so you're seeing this kind of intersection between public and private authority, and the implications for this are still being felt, and you know, many of these arrangements are quite an early stage of implementation. She's yet to see what kind of significance was. This will have


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Tony Heron: okay? And so just finally, then, just trying to pull all this together in, in, in in, in in terms of discussion, and maybe setting up some of the other presentations


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Tony Heron: there are a number of issues and tensions that Rob alluded to in in when we're thinking about food safety where our food comes from, how is it produced? Under what kind of environmental and social conditions? And is it safe?


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Tony Heron: There are a number of sort of tensions and and trade offs involved. When we think about this, it's not just about the the reach of the law and the legitimacy and authority of legal instruments to to impose change or to regulate. One of the, I suppose one of the kind of structural parameters for the food system is this, this, you know, often referred to as commodification. And and basically what's happened with the internationalization of the food system?


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Tony Heron: the production of food has moved geographically away further and further away from from the point of consumption. And so not only is that a physical barrier, but also some some say


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Tony Heron: that it's an emotional barrier. So the idea is that actually the price signal? Yeah, conceals the environmental social conditions, maybe of exploitation which take place at the point of production. Yet because they occur.


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Tony Heron: yeah, behind the veil of of the commodity or the price. We become ignorant and indifferent to those conditions. And and some argue, that's what allows us to to, to, you know, to sleep at night with with with, you know, sourcing


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Tony Heron: food from, you know, in in often quite problematic circumstances. So that's a that's a kind of structural process that's sort of arguably so baked into capitalism. Then, we have kind of international legal constraints. Now, one of the issues here is is that actually.


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Tony Heron: if you want to use the law to enforce higher standards, you have to do so in accordance with multilateral legal obligations, and most typically that you cannot discriminate on the base of how a good is produced. Yeah, you have to treat so called like products the same. Now, there are some exceptions there, some ways around it, but it has proven to be incredibly difficult for for States to manage this


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Tony Heron: even with things like, you know, increasing the amount of information on labeling. If that can be seen as discriminatory, you can fall foul to wto rules.


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Tony Heron: and you know the ubiquitous chlorinated chicken moratorium ban. I mean, that's that's contested. And it remains a moot point within, within, you know, international legal circles. See? So you've got issues there.


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Tony Heron: Then you've got. Thirdly, you've got issues about voluntary arrangements. Now, the advantage of these arrangements is they don't you know they don't fall foul of international legal constraints because they're market conforming. They don't discriminate the based on consumer preference preferences. But the evidence shows that scaling up these things is very difficult. Often they are characterized by duplication and overlap.


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Tony Heron: Low, take up you know, issues of price, sensitivity for consumers, and so generally what we see with Eco labels is. There's a there's a there's a ceiling on how much


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Tony Heron: you know how large that market can grow.


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Tony Heron: And issues of enforcement and and and whether the claims that appear on the label are credible. So there's all sorts of problems with scale within that. And then, finally, you have the fact that the the structural complexity which I started with makes it actually quite difficult, even if you had the political will and you had the legal authority


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Tony Heron: to impose conditions within the point at the point of production, or, you know, environmental or or social or or employment standards or labor standards.


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Tony Heron: Actually, the often where the food is produced is in geographically very remote places, very difficult to know.


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Tony Heron: you know how we trace that food. How we attribute those activities to particular suppliers. Even, you know, with the advent of technology and and data surveillance, it's still very, very it's it's it's a very, very difficult process. So there were technical. There are sort of technical obstacles to that kind of to that kind of that kind of move, even though that's being, you know. That's 1 of the kind of arguments. And and I suppose one of the


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Tony Heron: the shifts that we're seeing now with the use of technology. And so all of this is, you know, all of this informs our discussion and what's possible. And and and you know what, what is, what is practical, what is legal, and


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Tony Heron: and and and what is what is what is economically acceptable, because ultimately, of course, we also at least certain stakeholders would say, essentially, it's a trade off between, if you like, one set of consumer rights around affordability and price and another set of consumer rights around, you know, around food, safety around, you know.


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Tony Heron: attributes of food, you know, and as well as if you like. Certain


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Tony Heron: over kind of norm back claims around environmental you know, environmental standards or labor standards with which the food is produced. So you can see that you know, the question about the law isn't just a simple question about the enforcement law. There are all sorts of structural and political and moral kind of pitfalls in in the way of that discussion. So hopefully those comments


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Tony Heron: can, can, can, can, can. It would open up the discussion so I'll hand I'll hand back to Rob now, and thank you for that.


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Rob Doubleday: Great. Thank you, Tony. It's very clear, very helpful, setting out of of the scene. And there's I'm sure there's lots of questions that people might want to ask, so I do encourage you to please pop your questions if you can, in the QA. Such as you know. What? What?


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Rob Doubleday: Where are there examples where different kinds of laws, as Tony set out are are actually making a difference, you know. Disputes, you know. Maybe


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Rob Doubleday: maybe probe Tony on some practical examples I don't know, put whatever questions like, but with that I'd like to turn over to to jelly.


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Jellie Molino: Thank you, Rob, and thank you, Tony, for setting the the


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Jellie Molino: the scene for our discussion. So I will try to give you specific examples on what


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Jellie Molino: Rod had discussed. But before that allow me 1st to thank the organizer for the invitation


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Jellie Molino: and for purpose of our participants who may not be familiar with the organizations that I'm currently connected. So I would like to introduce, of course, the college, the huge Hall college, Svc. And the upper portion of the slides. That is the the college where I belong, and then, of course, the bottom is the center for climate change engagement. I think the the slides will be shared. So you can


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Jellie Molino: actually click on the link to learn more about our college and the center


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Jellie Molino: but for purposes of this discussion, what I will be sharing with you are experiences that I have in in the past years, in my capacity, working for promoting sustainable aquaculture in my country in the Philippines, and of course, in some of the works that I've been doing with international organizations such as junip.


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Jellie Molino: And right now, with the world back on, how are we are going to control sustainable public procurement? At least, you know, as our way of


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Jellie Molino: ensuring that the global supply chain will be more or less sustainable. Specifically, if it is the government which is buying. So basically, this is what I will be sharing with you


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Jellie Molino: are are some highlights on how the government are actually trying to to promote sustainability in the global supply chain, using their purchasing power, but at any rate, whatever it is that I will be sharing, though based on personal projects, are my own assessment, and is not by the to the organizations that I am Rep being connected or have been connected in in the past.


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Jellie Molino: So on my 1st intervention, actually, I would like to to focus on can regulations really stop the trade of foods that produced using environmentally damaging methods. And I would like to share a specific case that I I handled more than 10 years ago. This is a case of responsibly farm aquaculture in in the lake.


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Jellie Molino: but before it became actually sustainable more than 10 years. More than 10 years ago. Specifically, in 2011 there were series of fish kales in in the Al Lake. But to give you a perspective. In. In in my country the island lake is actually popular, not because of aquaculture, but because in the middle of the lake there is a volcano called the Al Volcano, which is.


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Jellie Molino: I think, known worldwide as the smallest volcano in the world. So if you will look at Google it. You'll see that within that lake there is a volcano, and, in fact, our Government has declared it as a protected area. But before the the declaration of the government of it being a protected area.


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Jellie Molino: Aquaculture or fish cage operation has been existing as a source of livelihood of the communities, but because it was not fully regulated, of course. What is the effect? It actually resulted to damaging the quality of the the water in in the lake, which resulted to numerous fish kills. So this is just an example of some of this fish that happened and reported in media in in 2011,


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Jellie Molino: which actually call for the filing of a writ of Caricassan. So what is a writ of Calicas? And actually, in 2,010, the Philippines became one of the 1st countries


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Jellie Molino: that had actually promulgated a special rules and regulations for environmental protection. So the read of Calicas and Calicasan is a Philippine word for nature. So it is also known as the writ of nature. In this case, if we in in my country see that they're public officials deep in private sectors that are violating our right


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Jellie Molino: to a healthy ecology which is a protected right in the Constitution. We can actually file a case before the Supreme Court


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Jellie Molino: for the Supreme Court to actually call the Government agency or the private sector that is violating such right because they are actually destroying the environment to stop that activity and ask them to actually do some remedial measures to to prevent the damage. So in that case, because of the numerous fish that have had been happening. And some particulate.


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Jellie Molino: It's a partnerless part of a Congress filed a case before the Supreme Court, and in this case


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Jellie Molino: you know what they were asking is for the Supreme Court to call the Department of Natural Resources to stop.


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Jellie Molino: you know, order assistance assist order to remove all the fish gauges because it was destroying the lake. So in that case I was a very young lawyer. More than more than 10 years ago. The the the local fish operators approach me and say, if we they are going to remove the the fish.


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Jellie Molino: what would be the alternative livelihood that you will be providing to the community. So it's like there is a need really to balance, you know, the protection of the environment, and at the same time providing a a livelihood to the community. So in that case, the the We are we, we agree to organize the local official case operators and come up with an Ngo called the Alec Aqua Culture Alliance.


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Jellie Molino: and then, of course, representing them, we filed actually an intervention case before the Supreme Court


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Jellie Molino: and ask them that, you know, don't remove the fish cage, but support us to make our industry more sustainable and more and and and and make us more responsible. In. In that case, you know, there are a lot of North workings that had been conducted to support


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Jellie Molino: the fish cage industry, to change the farming protocols and a lot of negotiations took place until such time that a memorandum of agreement


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Jellie Molino: has been executed between the the petitioner and all the affected parties within the League, and this particular memorandum of agreement was presented to the court, and it was accepted. So the court actually at at at that moment issued a read of of continuing mendamus. It's a special proceeding. Again. We're in the court, the Supreme Court, through the Court of Appeals


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Jellie Molino: jurisdiction over the lake to make sure that all of those mechanisms that were integrated into this agreement to make sure that there is a more responsible management of the lake where all of these industries could exist without actually destroying the environment would be implemented. In fact, some of this mechanism is 1st making sure that there is


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Jellie Molino: actually an institution that will monitor all the activities in the lake, because prior to this case, you know. Yes, this is protected area. But there's there's only one man monitoring everything without stop, without budget, but because of the case, the government


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Jellie Molino: has no choice, because there was an order of the court to provide, stop to, to actually regulate the lake and all of the activities there. And there there is a budget. And then there is actually, a unified rules on how to regulate it. Fish fisheries in the lake, both the the fish operators and the open fishing.


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Jellie Molino: So in that case, and and all Ngos were obliged to comply and come up with their their own code of conduct on how


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Jellie Molino: to do their economic activities in the lake, and they were even required to participate in the water quality, monitoring and coastal cleanup. And there is also an different municipalities, because in this particular area the lake is actually surrounded by different municipalities


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Jellie Molino: in case there would be dispute, it has to be resolved using multi-party system through. Of course, the regulatory agency. So


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Jellie Molino: of this day that we are actually discussing this, the the part still has jurisdiction, because the continuing madamas has not been lifted, and this parties are still submitting reports


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Jellie Molino: to the court


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Jellie Molino: on how they are actually implementing all of those measures to make sure that there is sustainable aquaculture on the part of the aquaculture industry, and at the same time, other other industries that are operating the lake are also required to make sure that they are participating on how to to promote the a more environmental management of of the lake.


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Jellie Molino: while, of course, promoting economic livelihood. So in this case I could say that yes, regulations specifically, if those are implemented even to court intervention, could really


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Jellie Molino: help us to make sure that our foods are produced. Use with less environmental damages, because this is a very specific case that happened in


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Jellie Molino: in the Philippines.


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Jellie Molino: Now, in the second intervention, actually, the second intervention now I would like to to to to for us to look at


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Jellie Molino: is.


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Jellie Molino: how do national and international law agreements actually protect individual consumer? Because the case that I shared was very specific on, on a, on a, on a specific province, and it is not even cascaded in in the Philippines, you know. Back then, I was actually as a young lawyer I was actually promoting for the implementation of 3rd party certification of aquaculture in my country.


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Jellie Molino: But it was so difficult, it was so difficult to to actually use this


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Jellie Molino: bottom to app the top approach, to convince the Government to adopt this as a matter of policy. So in that case, you know you, you become so


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Jellie Molino: passionate on. How can you help the country to change this policy? For for you to to to implement a more sustainable consumption and production mechanism in in in that country. So actually, I left the Philippines and pursue a Broadway study. There is very, very focus on sustainable consumption and production, more particularly when the government is buying because I was saying, you are regulating


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Jellie Molino: as a private sector, but the government in itself is not looking on how it is actually buying or even regulating other other industries. So in that case I would like to share with you.


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Jellie Molino: because I had an opportunity to work with unap in the completion of the recently


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Jellie Molino: concluded 2022 sustainable public procurement. Global Review. Of course, for those who are not familiar. When you say procurement, it is buying, and we say public procurement. It is that the buyer is the government. Some countries call it government acquisition, and then, of course, when we talk about sustainable public procurement. It is incorporating sustainability to the environmental criteria.


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Jellie Molino: social criteria, and the way that the government is buying either it is buying green products or organic foods, or


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Jellie Molino: or it is buying from responsible suppliers, or it is buying from suppliers within


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Jellie Molino: proximate geography to make sure that there would be less greenhouse gas emission due to the logistic of your supply chain. So in that case we actually look on the the trend in so far as the international agreements that could influence


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Jellie Molino: sustainable consumption and production, more particularly when the but the government is the one buying. So if you look at this figure 3.2. These are the international agreements that are actually supporting sustainable consumption and production, which, of course, include what sustainable and production of food supplies. And in this case we check also like, how do with this? International agreements


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Jellie Molino: actually influence the national law? If you look at


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Jellie Molino: figure 3.3 after the Rio 20. You see an increase of national policy, of national regulations that are actually aligned with the need to make sure that consumption and production are sustainable, and it even increases


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Jellie Molino: at the time of the adoption of the 2030 sustainable development goals. So you see that this is one way of actually, you know, protecting


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Jellie Molino: individual consumers. Now, with respect to the very specific issues that we are talking in terms of food, for example.


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Jellie Molino: you'll see that we'll check also what are the different products and services that have been prioritized by the Government in those


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Jellie Molino: national policies that are aligned with international laws and agreement? You'll see here, I highlighted food and catering services, because this particular review is actually the 3rd Unap did it in 2013, 2017, and then the recent is 2022. So we need the comparative analysis of 23, rd 17, and 2021, or 22. So in in food and


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Jellie Molino: catering services, for example, you see it was. It was 8 among the priority of the government. It becomes the 6. Now, to give you a very specific example on how is it on, on


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Jellie Molino: and and the ground. Then sh! Let's look at the example of this particular national strategy in the EU, which is known as farm to Fork strategy. In this case this was actually launched in 2020. But if you will look on this particular strategy, and how would it


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Jellie Molino: actually, you know, protect consumers.


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Jellie Molino: This particular strategy, if you look, is actually looking on. Reduction of pesticides is also looked on.


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Jellie Molino: Making sure that you know when you are producing. You are not actually reducing the the nutrients in the the soil. And even you're actually promoting organic farming. So in this case, you know, through this particular policy that actually it is being implemented in in the EU.


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Jellie Molino: But this is a line again, from the international agreement that that had been implemented and then cascaded to the National National Strategy. We are actually protecting individual consumers. Now, let's just put in a mark on contact.


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Rob Doubleday: Jelly. I think that you've done an amazing job in setting up.


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Jellie Molino: Last last slide.


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Rob Doubleday: Okay, just to give. Make sure Joyce has time to present.


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Jellie Molino: Okay, just last slide, just slide. This is the last slide. The last slide is here. So in terms of the framework, this is how it is being done, and just an example in the Brazil. If this is the Brazil which is inclusive of the procurement, you'll see. And just recently what we are doing. In so far as Brazil is concerned, the national policy is there.


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Jellie Molino: But now, starting next month, we will be looking at the 27 States of Brazil to make sure that from the the international agreement we're in being implemented in Brazil, we're now going to that


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Jellie Molino: State level and making sure that there will be also promoting sustainability in their procurement that would affect, of course, the global supply chain. Thank you so much. I'm so I'm sorry.


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Rob Doubleday: It's it's very it's fascinating stuff. And and thank you very much for


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Rob Doubleday: for that contribution. So now, just moving straight on in the interest of time to Joyce.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Can you see my screen.


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Rob Doubleday: We can see your screen again. It? Oh, yes, there you.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Okay.


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Rob Doubleday: That's perfect.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Is it without notes?


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Rob Doubleday: Without notes.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Okay, okay. So thank you for the introduction, Tony and Delhi. And so just a brief introduction but myself. I'm also Brazilian. So. Besides, my academic career have been working with agriculture and environmental policy in Brazil for more than 15 years, and that's how I land here in my Ph.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and I am our project.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: My project is supervised by Professor Rachel Garrett from the Department of Geography.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and we are funded by the European Research Council.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So I'm


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: skip from the introduction. And all this introductory information about the agricultural driven deforestation that Tony has read told us.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And so my idea was to focus on the the regulatory, the voluntary environmental commitments that some of the agricultural supply chain has made in the last 20 years


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and focus on this 0 deforestation commitment that the soy supply chain has signed it in 2,016, 2,006. Sorry. So when we ask like, if the agreement has.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: protect us from the like from consumers on food sustainability. If we zoom in on this on this policy, that the soy supply chain has implemented for the for the Amazon by Yome in Brazil.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So it means that to tackle the deforestation that has been driven by this so expansion. The Amazon, the soy sector, has committed to not purchase soy on lens that has been defressed after July 2,008. So very a lot of studies has shown that it has been successful, effective in terms of


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: protecting these soy to protecting the market from soy that as a direct driver of the 1st station.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: But of course, this reduction in deforestation in the Amazon in the last, like since the the beginning of the 2,000 and the middle of the 2,012 is not just like enforcement, not just as a result of a policy agreement, but also a combination of public policy enforcement for the law to protect the forest in Brazil.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: But besides this


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Besides the the success in the effectiveness of this policy we could see


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: that this commitment has left out other ecosystems that are also important for providing biodverse and ecosystem service.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and that's the case of this had. I don't know if it's I always when I'm talking about it, I ask who knows about Sahad? And it's a very low audience. That's no. So say, how did it? Brazil and Savona, that is,


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: highly hotspot of biodiversity.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: T. And we see that like here in this graph that the the 1st station, the soy driven the 1st station in the Amazon has dropped it


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and has been, we could say stable over the years, and it's not the same for the Seattle


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and for like


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: looking for this for this trends in this way driven differentiation understood has also, and our group Rachel has led part of this. This results that we have seen that if


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: this kind of strict volunteer commitment had been implemented in the Seattle Biome, 46% of direct soy. The 1st stage could be avoided in this region.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and we also have a scene that 16 to 4% of deforestation, avoiding Amazon has Offsat has leakage for additional soy deforestation to have. So so and and okay, we have some


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: soy, that is not driven, or has been reducing a lot of the deficit Demos. But what about the older biomes?


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So that's what has mobilized it, me and the group to understand why it has happened.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and I, I have been working in this paper like, what is the framework for understanding this volunteer environmental policy feasibility, considering this difference across the regions in the same supply chain. Soy.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And what we could see, is that this is stringent v environment policy, stringent volunteer environmental policy. As the Soy moratorium is a function of this public of opinion that influenced the market. So there is a clear forest bias to protect Amazon, and like neglecting the other ecosystems as the Seattle.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: there is a a critical political contest and gover government capacity, that influence which type of police are possible.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And here we see also, the policy will and the policy, the regulatory framework, the national regulatory framework. That's also bias to protect more the forest inside the other. Ecosystems


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: the company power to, because the company power related to their suppliers, their producers and consumers also influence the the the market risk to adopt or not adopt a policy.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: We also have seen that the market structure and the financial cost associated to, to adopt or not a more stringent policies also in the table of the discussions, and is. And it also in terms of international and national demands for soy. So we see, like the tension between having Europe


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and China as the main market for Brazil, for example, for soy. And how this, this trends on European more sustainable demands can be powerful. But


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: with this shift for China's a bigger market has also shifted the the company's willingness to to take a more stringent policy.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And then, finally, we see that leadership. It's also count a lot when we we desire to to have a more stringent policy. But, of course, that all this factors come together in a policy window. So in this this paper. Specifically, we. We are demonstrating this, that we we had them a policy window for the Amazon.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and and at that time it was not an open window for this to have the conservation.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: But beside that, we see that the political, the national, political change has been very, very critical on taking these decisions.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So to summarize and try to to keep my time. And


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: yeah, some takeaways from my specific resort. And how does it actually? And dialogue with the law and stable for production


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: is that we can have regulations or national, international, at national or international scale or private ones.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: But the polit, the political window. The national political factors can be decisive for the implementation.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And some change in the political regimes.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: That's the case of Brazil has weakened enforcement of law in the last years.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and it also has affected the enabling conditions for the the volunteer environmental commitments.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and and


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: clearly, like the shift in Brazilian political regime, 2,009 to a far right wing President has constrained the progress of the Seab agreement in the Swiss supply chain.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So what we learn that the the the design, and the adoption of posts and regulations need to prevent and or consider that market evasions can happen.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: It means that we can have a for example, a European Union, or you keep due diligence for no deforestation products. But it can like just be a deviation for companies decided to to to sell to China that has less demand on sustainability indicators.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Companies wants to lower the risk. So it's my driven them to opt for my market diversion


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and worsen that can really, drive them to to a smallholder exclusion, strategy and exacerbate the inequalities that is already in place in our food systems.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and less and less, but not least important is the liquids across system ecosystems. So I applied this framework for So I'm returning. But we could see that the Udr. And even the the Uk duties they are still focus on forest formation, not having, like a more broader understanding of the conservation of other native vegetation.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And finally, yes, what would be interesting is to play a more comparative role from this regulations, international, sorry, and to build capacity on on national countries and national policy regulations, also to contribute on bringing and building a robust system


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: that would help the entire food system, not having, like small solutions that don't put everyone in the same table and having the same measures for everyone.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So that is a bit of I would like to bring, and they're running in time. I hope that we can dialogue now about that.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Thank you.


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Rob Doubleday: That's great. Thank you very much, Joyce. Thank you.


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Rob Doubleday: And


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Rob Doubleday: I mean what? What a great trio of perspectives that that set up some of the important questions here. Please do put questions in into the chat if you have questions, but I might begin


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Rob Doubleday: just because, Tony, you set the scene with.


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Rob Doubleday: you know, the diversity of outcomes we might be wanting to achieve.


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Rob Doubleday: and the different ways that law does and can play a role in helping to achieve those. And and then we had some great examples from Jelly and Joyce that just illustrated the the complexity. Th, that you sort of pointed out. Could you talk, Tony a little bit about?


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Rob Doubleday: You know how realistic is it that we can hope that these kind of late legal approaches that that we've heard discussed


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Rob Doubleday: can grapple with the with the complexity and the tensions, and it may be referring to the 2 examples we heard.


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Tony Heron: Okay, yeah. That's a very good question. I I think. It was. Yeah.


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Tony Heron: M,


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Tony Heron: I think that's I mean one of the question we haven't really talked about which which is implicit, I think. And a lot of this is scale and so you know the the you have you have. I suppose you can think about it in terms of what national governments can do at the border.


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Tony Heron: and clearly, I think with. With jelly's talk you could see that actually within country the power of the State to enforce outcomes is, you know, you know, if the political will. Is there, then, then, then, that


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Tony Heron: that is one that's a relatively simple part of the


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Tony Heron: puzzle. Now, the extra territorial reach of States. Once it's not at the border once you're trying to enforce conditions in a 3rd country. Then I think that's where it gets really, really, really complicated. So it's complicated because you are obviously you, you are potentially interfering with this with the sovereignty of another country. It's complicated because of the ways in which it is tied up with international


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Tony Heron: Legal obligations around non discrimination. And so so, if I was to be optimistic, I would say that


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Tony Heron: what you have in a sense with.


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Tony Heron: you know, with with with voluntary arrangements, is you have


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Tony Heron: the potential for


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Tony Heron: A more nimble way around some of those legal constraints.


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Tony Heron: but then you have the problem with with market failure. Yeah, that actually, you can't use price signals to actually save consumer behavior. But I think one interesting area. That seems to me that May, you know, and some there was some ideas around this within the Dimbleby food food report around


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Tony Heron: compulsory methods of production labeling. So that's the idea that actually, the kind of eco labels which provide additional information. So every label contains mandatory information on nutrition and and product content. And then you have Eco labels or other forms of certification which provide additional information. Now, one of the areas, I think, is quite


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Tony Heron: you know, promising is actually idea that States could legislate for further information. Within, you know within how food is produced, for instance, and so there's a there's a there's a legal there's a there's, you know, it's backed by kind of hard, if you like. Hard law, but it also it is. It is. It is driven


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Tony Heron: towards, not preventing companies from doing doing certain things or countries from doing certain things, but actually empowering consumers with a greater variety of information. Now, clearly, you've still got problems there. But I think that's kind of the direction we we're heading. I think if one was to pop optimistic. And certainly some of the, you know some of these Joyce was talking about. We're seeing that now, I think, in terms of


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Tony Heron: trying to use. So you you know, rather than I think there was for time where voluntary arrangements were seen. As you know, that was the way, and particularly the word you think about how environment, the environmental movement reconfigured itself around private.


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Tony Heron: The private sector cause, it was seen, as that was a more responsive way to deal with it. So I think you're seeing glimpses that maybe there is. There is space for a bit more, a a bit more hybridity. And and certainly, I think, like, you know, methods of production. Labeling is one area.


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Tony Heron: But it's again, it's it, is, it is. It is complicated, and it's not. It's not straightforward, but that that'd be one area I may point to. I would say.


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Rob Doubleday: Great.


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Rob Doubleday: I mean, Joyce. I might ask you to come in, you know, to really to pick up on on Tony's point, with reference to your work, and and perhaps I don't know if you can see in the chat. There's a question that's directed at you, which I think is perhaps related. So do you want to sort of respond to Tony, and pick up the question in the chat which is about the influence of private standards in upgrading or downgrading the Brazilian supply chain.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: Yeah. So just a comment Tony, like, in terms of scale, because you you.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: one of your discussion point was like, maybe the challenge of scaling up private volunteer commitments.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: What is seeing the case of Brazil specific? Because


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: in parallel of all this studies that have the same about the effectiveness of swim moratorium, and what could be avoided to to say how to deforestation? We also see that there is land available to expand, soy without any deforestation. There is a land rational behind that that could be easily responded. But


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: so in terms of I scaling up in terms of because soy, if we scale up of and and apply the the soy commitment for the entire soy chain would be a huge bill.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So in terms of there is a rational that could be scaled up because we have land to expand the the production


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: and with no frustration. But there is


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: very regional and politico and lobby against that. So it's really distention also about like signs in terms of what we can provide in terms of evidence and what is really in place and being discussed it and negotiated.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: So and and how does this act like the Udr is gonna


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: lead to that like there is no there is this condition of revising it for the next years about including or not other ecosystem that is not forest. So we need to see how it's gonna be.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: And for this I I take the the hoop to to answer the question about how do I see the influence on private standards. In terms of soy. Specifically.


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: I don't see this. So one moratorium


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: downgrading, because it's very well established, and they there is results on that they have. They. They didn't. They were able to maintain the the agreement


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: even with a far wide President that were wondering to to to


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: like finish with all this environmental policy. So I don't see that it would be downgrading. However, we don't see movements like to to having a sector wide commitment for the Seattle. There is this like expectation that


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Joyce Brandao - University of Cambridge: the Udr the Uk division, the other policy could like amplify this this commitment, but in terms of the sector, why commitment? We don't see it upgrading beyond the Amazon.


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Rob Doubleday: Hmm


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Rob Doubleday: interesting interesting. We just have 2 min left, I'm afraid. Jelly. So I'd just like to turn to jelly and maybe to pick up some of these questions about


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Rob Doubleday: the kind of hybrid approach and and and labeling and voluntary approaches, and how that intersects with private law, which is the area you look at in particular, I mean, do you see? Do you see private law


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Rob Doubleday: playing a role here in in regularizing? And these governance regimes.


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Jellie Molino: Actually yes, in in in. We be very optimistic about it, although, of course, as as mentioned, much of the work that I've been doing for the past years is really focusing on how the Government will be the champion in voluntary commitment to make sure that the the labeling will be done through government purchasing.


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Jellie Molino: but at any rate, you know, realize it after years of work.


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Jellie Molino: that if you don't focus also on the private law.


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Jellie Molino: The problem is now the government has expanding its its regulations to make sure that it is buying for its own project and meets


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Jellie Molino: certified products, certified services, but there is none in the market.


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Jellie Molino: there is not in the market.


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Jellie Molino: So if you look at like, for example, in the case of the Us. Just recently, this is a private law investment law, which is what they are saying. Okay, we will provide incentives to private sectors that will produce environmentally, product, environmental friendly products, climate, friendly products.


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Jellie Molino: So in that case, you know, it's like


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Jellie Molino: actually incentivizing them to produce more products that are certified environmentally friendly, because at the end of the day, when you don't


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Jellie Molino: provide private incentive to regulations, the Government has nothing to buy. The people has nothing to buy. The public in general has nothing to buy. So I think that's how how we are, seeing how how the regulations is actually working and hybrid.


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Rob Doubleday: Great. Well, yeah, on behalf of


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Rob Doubleday: global food security and


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Rob Doubleday: the all, firstly, to thank all the people that that join the discussion. And then.


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Rob Doubleday: you know, for them to thank our 3 panelists. And you really set out the the importance of this question of the intersection of of law and our supply chains, and the sustainable, safe and nutritious supply of food.


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Rob Doubleday: I have to say you've convinced me that it's very complicated, and you know, so we clearly need the kind of interdisciplinary scholarship that you 3 are providing and very engaged with. You know, actual supply chains on the ground, and it seems that


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Rob Doubleday: these kind of questions are only going to grow in importance, and therefore that interdisciplinary kind of systems, level scholarship is going to be really vital. So we grateful to you 3 for joining the conversation, for setting out the some of the really inspiring work that you're doing. And we yeah, we hope this is the beginning of a conversation that will will continue so with that, and thanks to the organizers once again, Abigail and Francesca, and thanks to you all for joining. I'll say goodbye


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Rob Doubleday: bye.


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Tony Heron: Thank you, everyone.


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Tony Heron: Good evening. Bye.